Can You Talk Too Much In Therapy?

Is talking through your entire therapy session the best use of your time with a professional counselor? In this transcribed episode of the Shrink Think Podcast, Nathan and Aaron talk about...talking, and the difference between validation and venting.

Aaron Potratz:

Hey everyone, welcome to the Shrink Think Podcast. I'm excited to be here with you today talking through an interesting issue. As we were bringing it up, it's one of those as therapists that I think if you were a mental health clinician and you've had this experience, you'd be like, "Yes, that's totally my experience. I've had that before." And if you are somebody who has been to therapy and you hear what's going on, hopefully you'll identify with it and be like, "Oh, that's totally me. What do we do about it?" So, it's a match made in heaven on this episode.

But before we get started and jump in, I want to remind you guys to head on over to the Apple Podcast store. I don't know if the Google Podcast store has it, but we know also Spotify Podcast has this. Give us a five star rating, leave us a positive review, let people know who we are and what we do. The feedback we've been getting has been awesome. Seems like it's just been growing, and we're hearing from a lot of people that are listening to our episodes that they're short, they're informative, consumable, and entertaining, of course, because...

Nathan:

Boom.

Aaron:

As I always say, "If I'm going to do it, I need to have a good time doing it." Because if I'm not having a good time, you're going to be bored. So, head on over to the Apple Podcast store, Spotify Podcast store. Leave us a five star review and tell all of your friends about the Shrink Think podcast. So, with that, Nathan, we're going to be talking today on this episode about when a client comes in for therapy, and they're talking and talking and saying lots of things and verbal processing, and then the session is over. And that happens over and over and over and over, and you're like, as a therapist, "What are we doing here? What would you say you do here?" That's kind of the generic setup, but go ahead and unpack it. What is going on?

Nathan:

Yeah, I think this particular thing happens more so when you start off therapist/client in actually a really good relationship, to be honest, where you kind of feel like you click or whatever. And you keep talking about stuff. You've heard goals, you've heard, like, "Oh, this is what I want to work on." And then the more that talking happens, the more the direction shifts, and it's typically subtle. And so, you're talking about something, and by you talking about something, what I'm saying is the client is talking about something, and it'll be significant. And as a therapist, I'll be sitting there thinking, "Man, there's a lot going on in this person's life on a regular basis. There's just a crazy amount of information going through."

And there's always something. Like, every week, there's always like, "Oh my gosh, my daughter totally did this this time. You wouldn't even believe it. You know how I told you that before we had to go to the hospital because she hurt her wrist? Well, now actually... Okay, so my husband left..." And then I'm looking at the clock at some point, "Really? Honestly?" Because I'm thinking in my mind, "Okay, you have these goals that you want to work on that really bother you." And now, I've got 20 minutes left as I'm looking at my... Because I have this clock in my office that's kind of unseeable to that person, and hopefully it's within my eyes where I can just glance at it. So, I just want you to know that, that I'm not holding my hand up. Looking at my watch like, "Good God, what are you doing?"

Aaron:

Or holding up a sign, "10 minutes, five minutes..."

Nathan:

Which I've thought about doing.

Aaron:

"Two minutes." A paddle.

Nathan:

With some of these folks that this is happening with, I have thought about that. Like, "We have five minutes left in your therapy time."

Aaron:

At the overhead announcement. That would be amazing. And at the very end, maybe confetti comes from... "You did it! You were successful." It's just littering the whole room. You're like, "Okay, we're done. That's it."

Nathan:

Or, "The doors are closing. Exit to your right." Anyway...

Aaron:

This is going to be a new business idea. Stay tuned, changing the face of therapy.

Nathan:

But the thing of it is is, well, my heart goes out to these situations, because there's two things typically going on, maybe three. The two are, there is an actual problem that is definitely real that maybe as a therapist, you look back on the intake and you're like, "Man, this sucks. We've got to get through this." And then on the other side, this person, the client, maybe you as a client, you don't have very much validation in your life. You might be feeling like you're living on an island, so you've got all this family around you, but nobody seems to pay attention to anything you're saying, and it's like you're living in your own personal echo chamber.

Aaron:

Yeah, and I would add, too, one of the things that people say often about that is the people around them, they can't really talk, because these other family members just give their opinions or they solve problems, or they're like, "Well, have you done this?" Or they'll compare, and they'll say things like, "Well, it's not as bad as this." And so, even if you can talk, the responses that people get are like, "Yeah, no wonder you don't share. And in fact, don't share, because it doesn't sound like it's very safe to share." So, I get it. It makes a lot of sense why you don't really have anybody in your life to just really hear and listen and validate.

Nathan:

And the thing of it is is that while that's true, the other issue that you came into therapy for is typically dramatically different than that. It would be this major subject change, going like, "Okay, we've heard about what's going on in your life. Now, let's talk about this thing," which is completely different, some unprocessed trauma that has nothing to do even with the timeframe that you're talking about, but you're so used to coming in and needing to have a conversation. And for some of you therapists, sometimes it's easier. It's like just, okay, you try, and you try, and you try for 10, 15 minutes, and then you're like, "Oh, well, okay."

Aaron:

"I surrender. White flag."

Nathan:

Right. "I'm supposed to listen, right? I'll just keep listening." So, I guess we wanted to share about how to navigate it. What are some ideas to deal with that? I think one of the things I want to mention around this issue that is particularly a problem is if there is another mental health disorder that's going on that makes something worse. I can think of two right off the top of my head, and those are ones that are not as big of a deal. They don't really care about dealing with it for whatever reason. They feel like they have it managed, and so they want to talk about X, they actually have also a Y problem that is not a big deal, but then they have a validation issue that is really driving the boat.

And so, I guess, I'm hoping I'm not making this sound too complicated, because I feel like this is actually pretty normal, but the two disorders right off the bat would be ADHD, which a lot of people have. And even low levels of that, they can be very distracted, and then they're communicating themselves and going in circles, and you keep trying to redirect, but they haven't really decided to treat it with something else. And OCD would be the other thing. They feel like they really have to make sure that you understand, therapist, what's going on in the situation. And you're sitting there thinking, "Man, this OCD is actually a bigger deal than this person probably thinks." Or, "This ADHD is a bigger deal." But how do you bring that in when they're coming in dealing with this other trauma that they originally showed up with?

Aaron:

Yeah, and I think I would add to that and say people that have been emotionally and relationally stunted or have not had healthy, mature relational interactions, that also is a dynamic that people come in with. In essence, they don't know themselves, and so they're kind of discovering or processing what's going on. And in that process, they're discovering what the issues are or why it bothers them, or they're sort of feeling around in the dark as they talk, which is why it can be a bit of like, "I'm saying all these things," and then, "Oh, I realize this is a big deal," and then I need validation. Like, "Is this okay? Is this real? Is this something that happens? Is this normal, even?" And so, they have no context for what is even going on.

Nathan:

Yeah, and so if you're listening to this thinking, "Man, that's kind of me. I do have maybe some stuff going on, and then also, I really don't get to say anything in my house, or I do, but it isn't that meaningful," what you're probably going to end up with your therapist, because we're going to make some suggestions here in a second, that the relationship might feel a little bit more professional. And there's probably going to be, for lack of a better word, although I think it probably is the right word, is confrontation, to deal with what it is that you want to do, because it can feel like, man, it will again feel like you're not being heard.

Aaron:

Yeah, and I just want to clarify, too, whenever I think therapists use the word confrontation, we don't mean the Major League Baseball umpire with the manager kicking dirt and screaming in each other's face. Confronting an issue just simply means we're bringing it up, we're addressing it head on, and we're trying to understand together, work together collaboratively, about what is going on and how we can resolve it together. That's just a simple confrontation. It doesn't have to be super emotional. It doesn't have to be angry. There's nothing personal that's happening. We're just confronting an issue. That's all.

Nathan:

I almost think the word assertive actually can just work as well, because therapists, we're suggesting that you should be a bit more assertive. One example of that would be... Actually, and this is where it can feel definitely weird, like, "Hey, can we pause for a moment? I just want to double check some things, because I know you originally came in to deal with X, Y, Z, and it seems about the last three sessions, we haven't even talked about it at all, and I can tell there might be some other things going on, but I'm also realizing that you've got quite a bit to share in an average daily basis, and I'm wondering if we need to somehow resource that as well."

Aaron:

Yeah, and sometimes, that's a really good kind of summary and big sort of major pause interjection. Let's make sure we direct all of this material back toward our treatment goals. That's a great thing to do, because it helps keep your sessions focused, or it keeps the overall direction of what you're doing in therapy focused. Another thing I would suggest that's very similar, but it's kind of like... You can do this a couple of times in a session or one time every session, where if the client has shared a lot of things, I might pause them and reflect a whole bunch of things back. And so, I might say, "It sounds like this has happened and that's happened, and you're feeling a lot of these ways, and maybe you're stuck here, or you don't know what to do with it here." And I might check, "Is that right? Is that accurate?"

So, it's a little bit of reflecting back and checking with them to make sure that I understand, but then I will also move from there into, "Okay, and how does that relate to the treatment goals you came in with?" And so, I'll put it back on to the client to connect the dots of, "We wanted to work on these things. In your mind, how does it connect with those things? Or how do you see it connected?" And then we can begin talking about those things, because again, in this session, I want to connect whatever it is you're talking about with something productive toward those goals.

Nathan:

Yes, and I think one of the struggles that I have in relationship to that is I do a lot of IFS, so if I'm wanting... So, I've got somebody, let's say that's totally bought in, that this is the kind of therapy that they want to do, and they just need to tell me these 25 things before we keep going. Right?

Aaron:

In your 50-minute session. "I swear it'll only take 25 minutes."

Nathan:

Right. Yeah. Actually, that's funny, because that's exactly what happens. "I only need 10 minutes just to debrief real quick." That's not 10 minutes. Those are lies from the pit.

Aaron:

You sit on a throne of lies.

Nathan:

Yeah. So, if you were that person listening to the client, I would encourage you to go, "Okay, if you've agreed with your therapist versus kind of a certain way to approach something, be mindful of that." You might even say to them, like, "Okay, I listened to this podcast, and I started thinking, I kind of do talk a lot. And so, we had talked in the beginning about we had this goal, and I wanted to do this, but as I reflect, I don't know if we're doing that."

Aaron:

Yeah, or maybe you can even ask your therapist. You could say, "I listen to this amazing podcast, these two really funny guys that I left a five star review for. And anyway..."

Nathan:

We sound desperate with that.

Aaron:

Yeah, I know. Hey, it's subliminal messaging, right? "I listen to this podcast, and it resonated with me. Is that me? Do I talk, therapist? Would you say that that's me?" And then, you guys can work together to decide or discover what we're going to do about it. I think that's a great opportunity.

Nathan:

I think the thing of it is, too, is that I want to validate the fact that you may actually need more validation. You really might. And it might be one of those things where you talk about it with your therapist and go, "I think maybe before I can even do this other thing I came in for, which has been real, I think I'm starting in such a deficit of not feeling understood and validated that I need to get that out and experience that before I even start this other thing." And that switches the goals. You're just changing... And that will make sense, because everybody will be, "Oh, so this is what we're doing." Yes, this is what we're doing. And here's the thing. A lot of the culture has, over the last probably 10 years, switched to, "Everybody's going to see a counselor," which is fine with me, but if you want insurance to pay for it, you have to be doing something. There has to be treatment happening. So, you can't necessarily just sit in there and just talk about the football game or whatever just happened.

Aaron:

Right. "How did you feel about that? Hmm. Oh, and how did you feel about that? Oh."

Nathan:

"I can't believe he threw his arm out." "I know. How do you feel about that?" Right.

Aaron:

"Disappointed? Oh, that must be hard for you."

Nathan:

And don't get me wrong, I mean, at this many years doing this, you get sucked into those sessions now and then. There's no way you don't. But on the other hand, it's like, "Okay, I got to go back to work now." And so, maybe you agree to try to figure out, "Okay, what is it that you actually are missing with this validation? Do you have any friends that actually do listen, and how much in conversation are you?" "Well, we don't really talk very much." "Well, why is that?" "Well, I don't know. I just haven't called them." "Oh, okay. Well, maybe you could reach out to them. Maybe you could set up a lunch meeting or a dinner or a breakfast that happens every week."

Aaron:

And even change some of your interactions with your friends so that if you know you need validation, you can start to tell people like, "Hey, can we meet up for coffee? I got some stuff that happened, and I could really use some validation." It doesn't have to be weird. It doesn't have to be overly clinical. It doesn't even have to sound needy. It's the kind of thing that people do all the time in relationships, and especially if you just make it normal where this is the kind of thing we do in our relationship, then again, it's going to be more normal, because I do it. You do it.

And sometimes when you do it, you'll realize that the other person also needs the same thing, and what you thought was like, "Okay, I'm stepping out. I'm doing this sort of weird thing in our relationship, asking for validation, because this podcast thing talked about it." Actually, a lot of times the other person is like, "Oh, yeah, I would love to talk through this, too. I could use some validation for that." It's like, people just sort of need permission to ask for that. It's a very normal thing.

Nathan:

Yeah, and I think we probably should speak a little bit about what the heck we're talking about with validation. A lot of times, it's not the same as just venting, and then that's it.

Aaron:

No, it's definitely not venting.

Nathan:

And so, the other piece is it's also not the situation where you're going to talk about something going on in your life and the other person's just going to agree with everything you're saying, like, "Wow, that's right. You're totally awesome." It's not that. Validation is just basically making sure that another human being is hearing what you're actually saying and gets it. Actually gets it. They don't have to necessarily agree with you, but they're just inside of your shoes and your world, going like, "Wow, this is the world you're in."

Aaron:

Yeah, and it's not agreeing so much as saying, "Oh, your experience makes sense. What you thought or what you believed, what you experienced, what you felt, how you reacted, because of who you are and how you've interpreted things, or based on your life or whatever, it makes a lot of sense that you would hear it that way or feel this way or react this way to that situation. Yes, that makes a lot of sense." Sometimes, it's also validation plus normalizing, like, "Oh, that makes a lot of sense. And you know what? A lot of people feel that way." Or, "Wow, you're the third person today, just today, and it's only Tuesday, that has said that same thing." It's like, "Oh, wow. I'm a normal human being just like everybody else."

Nathan:

Yeah, and the thing of it is everybody on this planet, if you're a human being, you need validation. You can't just go through life. And I mean, a lot of self-confident people still need to know that they've been heard or that kind of thing. As a therapist, though, we just need to know what it is that we're doing. We're serving you, we're trying to help you, and you told us something to help with. And we're like, "Oh, yeah, that works. I can do this, this, this, and this, and help you with that." And then, when the conversation doesn't touch that at all, it starts to be like, "I don't know what I'm doing."

Aaron:

Yeah, it's kind of like taking your car to the mechanic. We're the mechanic, and we're like, "Okay, so what is it you need me to look at or work on?" And you're saying, "Well, this football game happened and the guy hurt his arm." And you're like, "Okay, and how does that relate to the car? Is it something has to do with the engine?" And like, "Well, no, I was driving to watch the game with some friends, and you know what? They got a booth, and there just wasn't enough room for all of us." And you're like, "Okay. And also, still, how does this relate to the car?" Right? It's got to connect somehow. And it's okay if it seems like it is a far out there connection, if it really does relate to the car, we just need that spelled out so we can say, "Oh, all those things happened for this reason, and here's what you need to do with it."

Nathan:

Yeah, and it may be, depending on how long that you've got sucked into these conversations or trying to work it out, that the relationship could feel like it changes quite a bit, because it would change from this normal feeling seemingly conversational component to, "Oh, we're going to do treatment now. And that can feel weird, because especially if you've taken a divergent road off for a while doing this conversational style stuff, it's like all of a sudden we're back on the freeway, like, "Oh, this is a lot. Okay, so here we are."

Aaron:

Yeah, and I would even say to be mindful of the conversation dynamic with your therapist, moving from a one-way, like a monologue, it's just you talking, because you've got this person for an hour. It's like you've rented a professional here to give you some feedback, to ask questions, to clarify things from a completely different perspective, or to add some things that you don't even know, because they're trained, or they've seen so many different people in their experience that could be helpful to you. So, be mindful of moving from that one-way relationship to more... From a monologue to a dialogue, where you can still be doing the bulk of the communication, but you're now inviting this other person to give feedback and to respond as well, so it has more of that back and forth feel at times.

Nathan:

Yeah, and a good part of this conversation on your side, listener, client, that is here on our podcast right now, to really take into consideration that this is just being helpful. The therapist is being helpful. So, the feedback that you're getting, probably other people in your life feel, and they may not be as articulate as your therapist to be able to explain to you what's going on or to go through these vibes. So, you can actually take a leap of assumption and go like, "Wow, I wonder if other people are feeling this way, too?" For example, "Maybe I talk too much," or maybe you're dominating conversation that you don't even know you're doing, especially when somebody starts to listen to you, because you're so deficit, which is why it makes sense you need validation. That's cool. So, in the end, it's all about conversation and goals. Have a great day.

Aaron:

Thanks for listening to our show. Don't forget to head over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts, to leave us a review and subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also visit our website at www.shrinkthinkpodcast.com/course and sign up for our free email course, Nine Ways to Overcome Fear and Self-Doubt, and you'll get nine weeks worth of customized, practical strategies you can use to get past the fear that's holding you back in your life. Thanks again for listening.